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Anonymous , " The Epic Of Gilgamesh "

The Epic of Gilgamesh is, perhaps, the oldest written story on Earth. It comes to us from Ancient Sumeria, and was originally written on 12 clay tablets in cunieform script. It is about the adventures of the historical King of Uruk (somewhere between 2750 and 2500 BCE).

This edition provides a prose rendering of The Epic of Gilgamesh, the cycle of poems preserved on clay tablets surviving from ancient Mesopotamia of the third millennium B.C. One of the best and most important pieces of epic poetry from human history, predating even Homer's Iliad by roughly 1,500 years, the Gilgamesh epic tells of the various adventures of that hero-king, including his quest for immortality, and an account of a great flood similar in many details to the Old Testament's story of Noah.

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They are more than just similar, this is the SOURCE of the biblical flood myth. The Hebrews also got their 10 Commandments from Gilgamesh, also known as Hammurabi's Code.

In fact the Hebrews got much of their religious beliefs from their 450 years as slaves of the Babylonians as well.

Thanks a lot! :-))

@Foub: Hammurabi (Hammu-rabi) did NOT give the Hebrews the Commandments nor give the world (as it was then) what is referred to as the Hammurabic Code. Hammu-rabi was a contemporty of Moses and thus when the Hebrews came out of Egypt, the Hebrews had been taught the Commandments and had shared them with their Egyptian neighbours and those who came out with them in what was the great Exodus. This is what is known as the Mosaic Code.

The 4th Commandment begins with the words 'Remember the Sabbath' - and is an internal clue that the Hebrews from the time of Abraham (and indeed from the time of Adam in the garden at Eden) would have known which day was the Sabbath (friday sunset to saturday sunset). The Creator God taught Adam, and then Eve who would have taught their children and so on until Abram was told Sarai would conceive a child of their own, and then Abraham would teach his children (Isaac) all the way to Jacob who was renamed Israel and so on. But I digress slightly. The Commandments, laws and statutes were known by the Hebraic tribes and by Moses - who was their leader. Some knew and kept those laws, most disobeyed them and needed a 'refresher' and a physical demonstration by God to remind them of their sins.

The surrounding countries were pagan and did not observe the Sabbath; and many Hebrews began worshipping other gods and keeping other days. Moses was commanded by God to receive the Commandments to bring to His people once again as a pointed reminder of his authority. This is why when Moses came down from the mountain in Sinai, the Hebrews were in the midst of making a false god, a gold calf and having a debauchery. This is when Moses threw down the tablets, remember? Moses had left his brother Aaron and his sister Miriam in charge of the Hebrews when he was receiving the tablets of stone with the Commandments that were written by the finger of God.

So please do some more research on Moses... and you will find the 10 Commandments and laws were in existance _before_ the Hebrew enslavement in Egypt - and that many of the Hebrews were aware of those Commandments and laws _before_ Hammu-Rabi.

Hammu the Teacher (rabi) adopted those laws because they were honorable and just laws, and he saw the freedoms and the righteousness that would be present when they were observed, and showed the logical mind of God.

One last thing, Foub, the flood was real, and a good book for you to study would be 'The Genesis Flood'

Cheers!

Seems unlikely that a downloaded book might contain a virus, unless it's an example of viral marketing. :)

Thanks for the post anyway.

More info on Gilgamesh and this book:

& 8220;

@Foub: Hammurabi (Hammu-rabi) did NOT give the Hebrews the Commandments nor give the world (as it was then) what is referred to as the Hammurabic Code. Hammu-rabi was a contemporty of Moses and thus when the Hebrews came out of Egypt, the Hebrews had been taught the Commandments and had shared them with their Egyptian neighbours and those who came out with them in what was the great Exodus. This is what is known as the Mosaic Code.

& 8221;

There is no real evidence that the Hebrews were ever slaves of the Egyptians used to build the pyramids. In fact the Egyptians used PAID skilled labor to build their pyramids and didn't allow slaves to work on them because they were considered unclean. The so-called Exodus is in doubt that it even happened as such. The area they were suppose to have crossed only takes two weeks by foot.

& 8220;

The 4th Commandment begins with the words 'Remember the Sabbath' - and is an internal clue that the Hebrews from the time of Abraham (and indeed from the time of Adam in the garden at Eden) would have known which day was the Sabbath (friday sunset to saturday sunset). The Creator God taught Adam, and then Eve who would have taught their children and so on until Abram was told Sarai would conceive a child of their own, and then Abraham would teach his children (Isaac) all the way to Jacob who was renamed Israel and so on. But I digress slightly. The Commandments, laws and statutes were known by the Hebraic tribes and by Moses - who was their leader. Some knew and kept those laws, most disobeyed them and needed a 'refresher' and a physical demonstration by God to remind them of their sins.

& 8221;

There is no evidence that even Moses ever existed as well as portrayed.

& 8220;

The surrounding countries were pagan and did not observe the Sabbath; and many Hebrews began worshipping other gods and keeping other days. Moses was commanded by God to receive the Commandments to bring to His people once again as a pointed reminder of his authority. This is why when Moses came down from the mountain in Sinai, the Hebrews were in the midst of making a false god, a gold calf and having a debauchery. This is when Moses threw down the tablets, remember? Moses had left his brother Aaron and his sister Miriam in charge of the Hebrews when he was receiving the tablets of stone with the Commandments that were written by the finger of God.

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The 10 commandments are still based on Hammurabi's Code, even if they added some of their own. Like the commandment not to kill. Under the Hebrews it was not to murder an Israelite, killing Gentiles was not considered a sin. The Christians changed this to just "Thou Shalt Not Kill".

Of course they're not going to admit that they were greatly influenced by their 4 and a half centuries of slavery under the Babylonians. Saying they got it "directly" from their god would carry more weight. Never trust the "official" version of history. More often than not it is nothing but a lie. It turns out that much of the "history" recorded in the Old Testament is far from being all that accurate as once thought. As it turns out most of Jewish ancient history is more myth than reality.

Also, there are some in Israel who are now claiming that there wasn't a massacre of the Canaanites. That the Israelis were the Canaanites instead.....

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So please do some more research on Moses... and you will find the 10 Commandments and laws were in existance _before_ the Hebrew enslavement in Egypt - and that many of the Hebrews were aware of those Commandments and laws _before_ Hammu-Rabi.

& 8221;

Well, you should do some research on the Easter Bunny then. It is as real as Moses was, apparently.

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Hammu the Teacher (rabi) adopted those laws because they were honorable and just laws, and he saw the freedoms and the righteousness that would be present when they were observed, and showed the logical mind of God.

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Hammurabi's Code is considered the FIRST set of Laws ever to be written down. BTW, logic and god together is an oxymoron. Also, Semite is a group of languages, not a people. This INCLUDED the Hebrew languages and many of the other languages of the area and time.

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One last thing, Foub, the flood was real, and a good book for you to study would be 'The Genesis Flood'

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No. There is absolutely NO geological evidence for a world-wide flood at all. It was suppose to have occurred during the early days of the Egyptian Empire as well and they never even noticed it. You'd think that they would... [rolls eyes] They certainly wrote about their smaller local flooding of the Nile River along its banks.....

The biblical flood myth is based on this myth. That book you quoted is OLD (1960) and way out of date on many things and just plain WRONG on much of the rest. So much so that many creationists don't even use it anymore. I just looked up the author of that "book" John C. Whitcomb and he is not even a scientist at all, but a doctor of theology instead. He is far from being qualified for anything to do with geology. Do you have ANY verifiable, credible, or unbiased evidence that supports this so-called world-wide flood? You fail to understand how science works and also how peer review works as well. It is set to weed out crackpots like this Whitcomb. Just because someone publishes a book doesn't automatically mean that they are correct. He is just expressing his religious beliefs in it, not scientific reality.

I deal in verifiable facts, not myth. You offer nothing but myth. You insult my intelligence with it.

Download Link 1

It's really interesting watching you guys argue about this stuff. I for one will not download this book/text as I doubt that I have time to read it. However, in my mind, it is not a question of who did what historically as we are all aware of the effect that time (especially) has upon verity, but a question of whether the philosophy contained within the teachings actually works. Just as one who has never tasted honey can speculate as to whether honey is or is not sweet, if he were to simply FOLLOW the process of opening the jar and TASTING the honey he will understand that honey actually IS sweet.

Similarly, religion, actually followed INTELLIGENTLY, not in the fashion of fanatics who would simply be fanatical about something else if religion didn't conveniently exist as a perfect vehicle for them to exercise their stupidity and violence, which is coincidentally in juxtaposition to the SPIRIT of religious principle, should be a VERIFIABLE experience.

This does however infer following the path delineated to explore the outcome (a scientific process in itself), thus we can see for ourselves whether religion is a bona fide process or not.

To condemn religion on the basis of the activities of SOME highly visible adherents, and here I use this word VERY loosely, without oneself having tested the validity of it's process and principles is highly unscientific.

Thus the religious process is verifiable or non verifiable via the process of experimentation. Assume that any bona fide religious path is factual and FOLLOW yourself and experience the results for yourself.

As for science. It is to me as much a belief system as is religion. Who among us can personally verify that e=mc to the power of 2? I cannot verify that the sun is 96 million miles from earth, or that light travels at the speed of 186000 mps. Why do the laws of physics fail to explain the the quasars?

And yes I CAN produce potassium permanganate in a laboratory by following the process outlined in chemistry but let's not confuse technology with science (nor politics with religion) no matter how closely linked.

Oh yes, one can consult the literature of scientific journals to "prove" a scientific "fact" just as a religious person can "prove" religion by referring to their canon of testaments.

The annals of scientific history abound with tales of cheats and of mistakes forever being re-corrected as new information reveals former ignorance, just as the history of religion is studded with the activities of the ignorant fools who THOUGHT they understood or used religion as an avenue of personal gratification. This is endemic in human nature whether religious or scientific.

It is all a question of acceptance of an authority. Only a fool would accept or reject either without personally verifying either or both for oneself knowing full well that the propensity to commit mistakes and to cheat are both thoroughly widespread across the spectrum of human activity.

Accept or reject as verifiable, meanwhile, welcome to the world of progressive exploration.

t3

Religion can not be followed "intelligently" by the fact that it demands you to believe, without question, in that which is not real nor verifiable.

One doesn't have to hit one's self in the nuts, with a hammer, to know what is going to happen.

Those who believe that science is as much a religion as Christianity don't really understand what science is. It is not a belief, it is a method. I don't have to go to the Moon to know that it isn't made of green cheese. It is far easier for me to get on a rocket, to the Moon, and verify this for myself. Can you say the same about the so-called supernatural?

That is the thing about science. It requires absolutely no blind faith at all since each claim can be tested to see if it is true or not. As I had said above, religion demands to you believe without question.

Science is also self-correcting as well. You didn't mention that these "frauds" were all exposed by other scientists testing the claims made. It is called peer review. Religion will often ignore the truth in favor of the lie.

Let me list the fallacies you are using.

1. Burden of Proof

2. Genetic Fallacy

3. Red Herring

4. Relativist Fallacy

5. Spotlight

Religion, by far, is the greatest evil ever created by Man.

Here is a better description of the major differences between science and religion.

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In religion, knowledge comes from a supernatural being or beings. The knowledge is perfect and absolute. it is granted or given to humans, not discovered. The knowledge cannot be challenged or questioned, but must be accepted complete. Any evidence that a religion is wrong about something will be ignored by the leaders of that religion because it if conflicts with their beliefs, it is automatically not true. You can change religions but you can't change a religion. Scientific knowledge comes from humans. It is potentially accessible to anyone (although very few people can truly understand the upper-end mathematics). Most importantly, it can be challenged by anyone. ANYONE. All you need is evidence. No scientific idea is perfect or complete. Everything is up for discussion. If you have better proof, we'll throw the old idea out. Science is conservative. If you have a claim that is going to change the way we see the world, you better have some serious proof to back it. Scientists debate, they argue, they demand proof and won't listen to each other until someone provides it. People get grumpy sometimes because they come forward with shoddy evidence and the world doesn't roll over and declare them geniuses. Rather than pout and claim that science is dogmatic or closed, they just need to get better evidence. That's what scientists do, that's what they are impressed by, evidence, not ideas or beliefs or anger or cries of unfair. When anyone says that science is a religion or is like a religion, they're demonstrating that they don't know very much about either science or religion (and many, many educated people know little or nothing about science and how it really works). Science and religion are as opposite as two ways of thinking can be.

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I don't claim to know anything about anything.

Here I make no claims for religion or science, I am simply pointing to an anomaly in your thinking. Accept it or reject it ... that's up to you. This is not a competition and might is not necessarily left. This is about the validity of ideas.

I am suggesting that you, personally must verify that light travels at 186000 mps otherwise you are simply putting your FAITH in an authority. Other people whom you believe, whether they be scientists, college tutors, associates, etc. And in your mind you probably have good reason to have faith in these authorities.

Religion is also about faith.

Have you personally verified the speed of light, among other things? Some people claim that they have proven the religious process. Should I have faith in them? We eliminate blind faith by testing the water ourselves. Does the process work? If so, why does the process work.

Do I believe scientists or priests? Not without personally testing their ideas. In a world where politics and religion are mixed as are science and business, I have little faith in anyone who offers proof that I must accept on faith.

I know that this may be difficult for you to accept since you are impressed by logic and process and anything that you perceive as an attack on your chosen ideal would disturb your mind, but think about the situation dispassionately. The scientific process can be applied to anything, even religion. That's what's good about scientific endeavour, we can achieve predictable results. The same process should work to prove or disprove religion.

But you can't refute one or the other just on hearsay or by the the behavior of some extremists. It's up to you you to try it yourself. That is why I am not claiming either to be superior, I have neither proved nor disproved either science or religion, therefore I make no claims as to the validity of either. They may BOTH be valid for all I can tell. Just be careful to keep your opinions out of the testing process.

And, I agree with your statement that religion is an evil created by man, but science used inappropriately has given us such gems as global warming, nuclear waste disposal problems, polluted rivers and poisoned the air we all need to breathe. Perhaps ... just perhaps ... if we follow religion as it is intended to be followed we may discover that it actually achieves its result. You won't know unless you try.

To some extent I am willing to accept both science and religion. But I am not going to unequivocally claim that you are wrong or that you don't know this or that since I don't know anything much about you. Speculation is useless. Proof is required.

Personal judgemental criticism is useless, here we are both seeking the truth, not simply attempting to disprove each other to gain superiority ... that, my friend is the essence of politics and we want to keep that out of our science, don't we?

jai

t3

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